Police Commissioners Talk

Jason

A reminder that WivSoc has a Q & A session with Linda Belgrove this Friday, one of the candidates standing to become the Essex Police and Crime Commissioner. The event is at The Nottage with an 8pm start.

The elections take place on 15th November. Here's the full list of candidates standing in Essex.

pitfall

Any recommendations on who to vote for here Jason? It seems a bit like a can of worms to me.......

RogerMainwood

You get a first and a second choice preference vote .....but here's one view on it all from former Metropolitan Police chief Lord Ian Blair:
""If they were going to break policing up, do it in a completely
different way, small cities and small towns, perfect. But that is not
what you have got."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20020451

Patsy

Interesting article here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/05/elections-police-commissioners-political-charade

Marika

The democratic conundrum: we'll still end up with someone as PCC.... even if hardly anyone bothers to vote.

adrian

Rather like the Guardian journo we've had two pieces of paper through the post on this subject - a polling card, and another polling card. I've heard of voter apathy, but candidate apathy....

Patsy

Whoever wins it is hard to see how he or she can claim any democratic legitimacy.

adrian

Mandate seems to count for little in our democracy. Part of the objection to Lords reform was the fear that the proposed voting system (PR) would give them a greater mandate than MPs in the Commons... there's an obvious answer to that one until you remember PR was the one thing they definitely didn't want to offer us during the voting reform farce.

Patsy

I am not sure mandate is a subject this present government wants to investigate too closely!

puffin

Amen to that Patsy. What a farce, no effort made by candidates to engage with voters (do they receive any money for leafletting at least?). At least Linda is showing her face, though I have no idea who/what she stands for, so perhaps I ought to visit the Nottage (not perhaps the best use of voters time if they have to go and see/hear each candidate individually). Sigh.

Biker

we've had two pieces of paper through the post on this subject - a polling card, and another polling card.

And everything on the radio for the past fortnight as been about some elections 3,000 miles away.
Bizarre init.

adrian

Yeah, well the Americans know all about a mandate don't they. lol
Billions spent to secure a 1-2% advantage in the popular vote, and all candidates outside the two main parties given zero attention by the US media (according to the completely unbiased Russia Today :)

Marika

I just read the Guardian article Patsy referred to.
I mostly rate Guardian articles but I thought this one read like a proper Eeyore piece: Why should I bother; nobody cares to tell me anything and it's not as if I agree with the idea anyway.

This election may take some beating in the way it was foisted upon us, and in its scanty preparation and candidate exposure. But when all is said and done, the process that's set to unfold on 15 November will land us with a PCC for this region and either you have your say in who this will be or not- simple as that.

And you can read about all the Essex candidates here, listen to one of them on 9 November at The Nottage (see calendar), have an online conversation with another here, and read the view's of another here, see why you haven't been leafleted here, and so on.

For an on-line savvy community there's not much excuse for not knowing what gives.

Patsy

Call me an Eeyore if you like but I think that democratic accountability rests within the whole community not just the online savvy bunch that you find here!

Biker

Yeah, well the Americans know all about a mandate don't they. lol

:-)

Marika

Patsy, It's the article's author I'd call an Eeyore, not you ;)
The preparation for this election has been woefully inadequate and that's a good reason for anyone who can do so to find out more about it.

I'm not particularly keen on the whole idea of PCCs but what I would hate even more is having someone in that position who got in on a 10% turn out.
If I have to put up with a PCC I'd at least like to have the solace that the person elected is there by the will of a considerable number of my fellow citizens.
l fail to see how advising people to spoil their paper or not to vote at all addresses the democratic deficiency in any way.

adrian

Must admit I am planning to spoil my ballot in this instance.
Voting as normal gives this joke of a process credibility it does not merit IMO.

If the PCCs get in with a really low turn out, a bigger point can be made. If the turn out is just a little bit lower than other local elections, the pols can happily ignore complaints about the process.

Dazzer

A very large return of spoiled papers would make a much stronger statement about the process than abstaining, which could be interpreted as apathy.

Marika

...spoiled papers would make a much stronger statement about the process...

Does anyone really believe that that would be the official interpretation?

Dazzer

Maybe not, but free elections and the fourth estate are there if we care to use them effectively.

Biker

A very large return of spoiled papers would make a much stronger statement about the process than abstaining

Perhaps.
Although without voting, we risk somebody as authoritarian as our last governments many Home Secretaries ;-)

Marika

Dazzer, I don 't know what you mean by 'if we use them effectively' - you mean after the event? How would that be effective?

liz

Pitfall, why are you asking Jason for a recommendation - does he know something that's hidden?

liz

Who is this body called One Team Policing who's website says:
"Thank you for using our Police Crime Commissioner web site which we provide primarily for commercial purposes. Our site has no association with the Home Office or any other Government department."
What does all that mean?

http://policecrimecommissioner.co.uk/contact
These PCC folk are going to have a lot of power. Are there any minimum requirements to stand for election? I think they should at least have sat some sort of test, e.g. logic tests.
Did the Wiv Society invite them? Is the meeting open to everyone or just society members?

liz

A question about those standing for election - do they have to declare any interests in companies that might benefit from any privatisation of police services, which they may support?

diane

How can they justify a salary of £85,000 for this fancy job?

adrian

re: "Pitfall, why are you asking Jason for a recommendation - does he know something that's hidden?"

In a modern democracy we can delegate our decision-making responsibilities to whomsoever we choose...;-p

queenie

I'm just surprised that as a member of Wivenhoe Society I haven't been notified of this talk. There may have been a mention of it in the last newsletter which came out a couple of months ago but don't understand why WS haven't emailed their members with this information especially if they are hoping for a good turnout?

Dave

The Wivenhoe Society was approached by Linda Belgrove to give a talk regarding the forthcoming elections for the post of Police and Crime commissioner. She has stated that this will be a factual talk and NO electioneering will be allowed. The meeting is open to everyone not just Wivenhoe Society members. It was felt that, due to the lack of information from the government, this meeting would help Wivenhoveons have a better understanding of what was happening hence the title Who,What,Why and Where. I apologize to those who feel that I have overstepped the mark but at the time there was no information available regarding this election and I thought it would be a very good idea to have an informed talk regarding this matter. Finally it was remiss of me not to have all the WivSoc members e-mailed. Dave Harrison, Chairman The Wivenhoe Society

Val

Will Bramhall, of the Colchester Cycle Campaign, has grilled the candidates on their attitude to 20mph speed limits.

"Colchester Cycling Campaign questioned the Essex candidates for the post of

Police and Crime Commissioner about their attitude to 20mph. The responses

are below. I have not received a response from Nick Alston (Conservatives)

despite two requests.

Andrew Smith, UKIP, via email: I do not agree with your point mainly
because

I do not think all residential areas justify it. I also prefer more

attention on dangerous driving at any speed rather than blanket limits on

speed. Often the police seem to want to catch speeding but pay almost no

attention to dangerous driving. In my road even 20 is too high at times but

on other parts of the road at other times 30 is fine.

-----

Mick Thwaites, Independent, via Twitter: @willbramhill It's up to your
local

authority. It should be self enforcing with suitable traffic management in

place, not left to the police. I'm not talking about the police not

involved, just local authority taking the lead, traffic cops enforcing
other

areas to reduce casualties.

-----

Valerie Morris-Cook, Labour, via Twitter: @willbramhill I do support 20mph

around schools, parks and in some housing areas. This is something that all

local authorities should be managing. As a voice of Essex, I would ensure

public feeling is known.

-----

Linda Belgrove, Independent, via Twitter: @willbramhill You helped me to
get

a 30mph in my village! I support 20mph outside schools and in residential

areas. Local people to decide.

-----

Robin Tilbrook, English Democrats, via Facebook: I don't have much of an

opinion on this but why would it matter if I did?

Will B: You are standing for PPC, aren't you? Police support of local

authorities vital to success of 20mph in lowering injuries, making towns

liveable.

Robin T: The Police Commissioner will have no role in deciding on 20mph

speed limits. He cannot change the law at all.

Will B: Law already in place. Up to LAs to implement it. Police response
has

varied by area - their opinion is vital.

Robin T: The Police have no role in deciding the speed limit - only in

implementation.

Will B: Please see 20splentyforus.org.uk"

The elections for police and crime commissioners are taking place
nationally

on November 15. You can find out more about your local candidates at

http://www.choosemypcc.org.uk

dud5ers

Confirms my opinion of Ukip and English Democrats - but I wasn't going to vote for them anyway

pitfall

Typical politicians answers. That's the problem - you get the feeling that they are just saying what they think you want to hear, and that they don't actually mean it.

For example, Andrew Smith, UKIP, has got the car drivers vote in mind, as that is quite a few people.

Dave

Last nights meeting organized by Wivenhoe Society was a great success regrettably not many people turned up. Remember if you do not vote do not moan about the result.

pitfall

I'll vote, but I just have the feeling that I will have a lot to moan about anyway.

liz

I'm not sure that policing should be linked to political parties - just as local planning shouldn't be the concern of local politicians.

Jeanniepc2

One of the interesting facts which came out of the meeting on Friday was that, bearing in mind that the deposit for anyone standing for parliament is £500, the deposit for the Police Commissioner is £5,000!

greenback

Many people have said to me they are not voting or are going to spoil their paper. These are the people who have a conscience and are thinking about it. The problem is that those with a vested interest will vote. The vote is going ahead with or without our input. I am fearful that if the majority do nothing we will be landed with a Police Commissioner that can drum up the most voters (mainly political and fringe organisations). With a heavy heart I will be voting.

Arkle

Liz, agree it does not make sense that policing should be linked to political parties. Imagine voting for the Labour candidate if you do not like Dave Cameron, or vice versa.

There should be an extra box to tick, "I don't want one" so if enough people ticked that box, we would not have any problem. It is not going to happen though.

adrian

The more I think about this the more I think spoiling the ballot is the ethical option.
Spoiled ballots are clearly not indicative of voter apathy, and can send a message to those who would further undermine democracy in this country.
On this forum we are all reasonably web-savvy and can find information if we wish to. However, a democracy needs to include EVERYONE who is entitled to vote. The ONLY way to do that IMO is to post information through every letterbox. That has not been done. It is a worrying slip in standards with much broader ramifications than simply the current vote. What, for example, would people feel if General Elections were run in the same way in the future?
It's not democracy if only some people are invited to the party.

Patsy

It also concerns me that the current police committees, which at least allow for the possibility of representing the diverse make-up of police authority areas, are being replaced by a single commissioner. The centres with the highest population density will presumably carry the vote to the detriment of other areas.

Mike

A response from Val Morris-Cook....

Thank you for your email

With the pressure on resources i cannot promise to re-instate the police front counters in any area that has seen there demise.

What i do think it an opportunity is to see what is available- such as using community hubs as a base for police so there is a presence which is really important.

What is important in today's world is for the public to feel that it is worth reporting crime, the current statistics show that crime is dropping ! i do not share this view I feel that the public and businesses have stopped reporting as they see no point...

When we start to see the true picture we can lobby for additional resources to support what we know matters....We also need to release officers from the burden of baby sitting and get on with the job they all signed up for..

Val

Sheila_Foster

In terms of information on the candidates, there was a spread in last week's Essex County Standard about them, and we did have a one sheet newspaper through our door from Val Morris-Cook. Otherwise it's the website

I agree that this post should not be politicised and therefore should not be subject to our vote but now it's there and some will be voting I don't want to leave the choice to others. I would rather be voting on whether there should be a vote or not, but don't think spoiled papers will necessarily be read that way. So doing the usual ineffective thing of writing to the MP.

wlodge

If anyone still has yesterday's Gazette there is also a spread on pp10-11 with information.

Re: Patsy, yes I guess larger population centres have more say but it is still one person one vote. There is also the police and crime panel, made up of one rep from each local authority and two lay members. I can't remember now what the deadline is for applications for lay members, and whether this has passed.

liz

Whoever gets in will have as much right to rule as the current coalition government. I fear that whatever we do is futile in this election. Although I have to admit I'm worried that if lots of fair-minded thinkers don't vote then fascists might win, and these extremists will probably contract out police work so that minorities, protesters and campaigners can be quietened in the back of 'police' vans.

liz

My decision is to vote for the Labour person - Val. Because Labour are actually against the whole commissioners policy and she is very aware of the pressure PCCs are going to come under. She is planning to protect the independence of the police, and uses that all important phrases "transparency over meetings". In answer to my questions about privatisation she said:

"I do not believe that it is the right move
to privatise our police services It is a step too far to imagine a security
service patrolling our streets or involved in investigative work. I will also
commit to transparency over meetings and contacts with lobbyists and in the decision-making
process of any existing or new public private partnerships. As whether we like
it or not any PCC will be lobbied. But I will do everything I can to protect
our Police."

Biker

Although I have to admit I'm worried that if lots of fair-minded thinkers don't vote then fascists might win............ My decision is to vote for the Labour person

Are you aware of Labours track record on civil liberties :-)
I'm just sayin'......

puffin

Have to agree with you there Biker (sigh). The only candidate who bothered to reply promptly to my e-mails was Linda Belgrove (an intelligent, rather than party-line gobbledegook response), and as she was the only one to appear 'in the flesh', I'll be taking that into account today.

adrian

"I'm worried that if lots of fair-minded thinkers don't vote then fascists might win"

Whilst not desirable, I think that is the lesser of evils compared to giving this farce of an election any credibility. No CC is going to pay much attention to a self-proclaimed bigot (at least, I hope they wouldn't...)

Marika

No CC is going to pay much attention to a self-proclaimed bigot (at least, I hope they wouldn't...)

a) how would you know if s/he had or not?
b) s/he would probably be acting illegally if they didn't pay attention

Voting beats 'hoping'.

greenback

I said that ages ago.

greenback

Just off to vote

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